EP 16: Why Does Trump Hate Free Speech? Mahmoud Khalil, DOGE, Gaza, and Measles

What a shitshow! Not this show. This show is pure gold. But the big show that we all have to watch? That, my friend, is pure shit. 

Please, enjoy these AI generated show notes that we get whether we want them or not. Accurate? Not? You tell us. Send a message. They probably took a few liters of fresh water so we might as well use em. Love, O.

"In this conversation, Odysseas and AJ Layon delve into the complexities of modern politics, reflecting on the implications of leadership choices, the historical context of democracy, and the rise of authoritarianism. They discuss the role of corporatism in shaping political ideologies, the impact of U.S. foreign policy on global conflicts, and the ongoing struggles for civil rights. The dialogue emphasizes the interconnectedness of these themes and the need for a critical examination of political narratives. In this conversation, AJ Layon and Odysseas delve into various pressing issues, including the historical context of global conflicts, the role of leadership in conflict resolution, public health challenges related to vaccination, abortion rights, the intersection of law and morality, and the implications of social service cuts on economic inequality. They emphasize the need for informed discussions and the moral responsibilities of leaders in addressing these complex issues. In this conversation, AJ Layon and Odysseas explore the complexities of political figures, the betrayal of the working class by the Democratic Party, and the lack of viable political alternatives. They discuss the limitations of diversity and inclusion initiatives, the urgency of climate action, and the ongoing assault on government and democracy. The dialogue emphasizes the interconnectedness of social issues and the need for collective action to create meaningful change."

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Transcript

0:23

Hey, guys. What's up, future Odysseas here. I just, wanted to add a couple of, points of clarification. In this episode, we'll talk about a bunch of stuff. Mahmoud Khalil. And, you know, Doge and, you know, and of course, Israel, amongst other things. And, there was a couple of things that I wanted to address, that, should have mentioned or that have come up since then. One is that, Israel resumed indiscriminate bombing, violating the cease fire. You know, resumed bombing of, of, Gaza, Palestine, as a result, Ansar Allah and in Yemen, started, detaining traffic in the canal. So, you know, stopping shipping, in other words, was something I had been doing, before, and then they had stopped the cease fire. And now they have returned to it because, Israel violated the ceasefire. And, the, their bombing campaign is and, of course, as you know, true to form, for them, completely indiscriminate. I think they've killed something like, you know, between 2 and 300 people so far in just a very short period of time. My contacts on the ground in Gaza said that horrific and widespread, and as usual, they're not attacking military targets. They're just attacking everybody, attacking people. So there's that. The other part was, that I wanted to mention that, for clarify that Mahmoud Khaleel, the, protester, from Columbia College, that, that that, was recently arrested by Ice at the direction of Trump and his administration. The government, is, he has no criminal record, and he did not violate any laws. In fact, that's not even alleged by the state. The state has specifically and openly stated that he is, being detained and potentially deported. As, just because of his political views, that makes him a political prisoner. I feel like that was, you know, I didn't say that specific phrase. And I do think, it's important to, to see it in that context. He is a political prisoner. I mean, it's, you know, you hear that term in reference to other countries. But not when we do it, when the US does it rather, so, you know, we're saying, another part, kind of funny development. You know, regardless of, you know, everything else about what Doge is doing, the Department of Government Accountability under Elon Musk, quote, unquote, Department, because it's not an actual formal department. The kind of havoc that they're wreaking, there is some upsides to it. They, probably unintentionally shut down, a radio station that has been broadcasting, Cuba broadcasting propaganda at Cuba for a really long time. You know, not too long after the revolution. The U.S, of course, was repeatedly tried to interfere with Cuba and and elsewhere. So, you know, I mean, yeah, something to consider that, there is a level of stupidity, at play here because I don't think that's something they're ideologically opposed to. In fact, I would go so far as to say it is certainly not something they're ideologically opposed to. But, you know, they're just kind of in their monkeying around. So there's that, and that's all I wanted to say to you. Enjoy the episode. Hope you guys are doing well. Thanks for listening. You know, give us a little review. Thumbs up. Come on. It's, it's practice. Putting, ideology into action. Yeah. All right. Future Odysseus out. Oh. Right. Welcome back. Welcome back to camera. I don't know, I'm here with my uncle. My camera and my. Camera, comrade uncle. Thanks. The the honorable, the honorable, doctor, comrade, uncle Abraham. Joseph. Ibrahim. Leon. Some, like some might question the the honorable part I'm. Not sure about. And depends on who. Guess the question you ask. I should think of a few people who are probably. Pissed off, like. Okay, whatever. Whatever. It's all good. So if it's. Any consolation, there's many more that if they got to know, you would. Also what I'm saying. Yeah. Got it. Me. Me too. Of course you can't. What are you gonna do? Just leave. Yeah. What are you going? What are you going to do? What are you going to do? So we are here. Here it is. The, Oh, the 15th of March, I think. Right? So 15th of March. It's, Yeah, it's Saturday, it's 17, 20 hours. And here we are, still going through the first four months of Trump's presidency. Yeah. So, so so, we had a slight disagreement after the election, as I recollect. We do not remember. We we talked about, about, what? It could have been worse with Trump. I mean, I, you know, I had my own issues, multiple issues with, with, Kamala Harris. You know, one was she supported Joe Biden's genocide. Two, she ran from Green New Deal. Three she ran from it. But penalty a bunch. I mean a bunch of it was a bunch of and and and she seemed to think this is a thing that the Democrats have done at least since Clinton, maybe before. She seemed to think, however, that if you run over enough Republicans. You know, that. Would make up for losing everybody else. And for me, that was just. Yeah. You know, actually, for me, I think, you know, you and I have talked about this, my my first vote was in 1972, I believe, it was for George McGovern. That guy I like, I supported, you know, but everything else up to Obama trying to win was. Well, it's the least. It's the least bad of about. And with Obama, I will grant you that I. So. Yeah. For that. But, you know, I believe. Yeah, yeah. We it seemed like it could be different. Yeah. Seemed like it could have been. He said something, right? Something, at least initially. Both my wife, Susanna and I worked on this campaign show much more than I. Yeah. It was clear that there was going to be a problem after he won, because here in Florida, Susanna went to the Democratic, state Democratic Party and said, listen, we just want, you know, it's just the presidency. We need to have a movement. This needs to be FDR style, big, broad, aggressive, you know, and they said. And they said, absolutely. Absolutely not. Break out the red flag. Yeah. And no, they didn't. And it was as clear as can be that that was going to be a problem. And of course it was. Yeah she won a second term. But but you know, but it was a problem. And then of course after that it was Trump and then Biden. And we know what happened there. And now Trump again. So it it and so the issue is you and I discussed this months wasn't a year ago, not maybe six months, eight months, I don't know what is it you know is is Harris bad? Is Biden bad? Is Trump worse? You know, I think it's safe to say that in terms of definition, not throwing words around in terms of the definition. Sasha, I think we are entering the vestibule of that political ideology. Yeah, is true. I think we've been I know and this is this is where we slightly disagree, but it's not a bad descriptor because no, I will tell you, you know, Mussolini is a guy who the founder of who argue that fascism is basically corporatism. The government pushed corporations together. That was, in his brief definition, fascist. You know, obviously we're definitionally there's more than that, right? It's racism. It's disrespect for law. It's all of that stuff, right? Including corporatism. So you could argue and in that sense, we have been in fascism is vestibule for decades. I mean, the the loss of our real democracy, very real choice has been an ongoing project for just decades. Very since reconstruction. And you can I mean, you know, I. I mean. I think no, the end of reconstruction that the apartheid state, the United States was in that British period, 1865 to what was it, 1874? Is that right? Nine years. Ten years, just like that? Yeah. That apartheid state had there wasn't the, the opportunity to to change it, to make radical. Change. And we lost that opportunity. What do you mean, no? People are right. And then it was until 1965, 64, 65. But Lyndon Johnson's, Voting Rights Act, the Civil Rights Act, that once again, we had the opportunity not being apartheid state, which we were after the end of reconstruction until right until and then to be clear that to be clear, because I don't want to be just tossing words around that people say, no, no, no, apartheid. You know, South African word, it means basically shepherd black and brown people were treated separately, differently, had different rights, even though technically in the law they could vote and have the same rights. In reality, there's de facto in the jury. De facto, they didn't have the same right that that came to an abrupt stop or began to stop with, no matter how flawed he was. And he was flawed with Lyndon Johnson and his administration. Yeah. And, you know, and Johnson said, in those years we have lost the South to the Democratic for the Democratic Party. He said, for a generation, well, three generations later, still, and the Dems have not moved last year. Which brings us to where we are today. Yeah. Yeah, quite, quite, quite a bit right now. I mean, you know, well I, I would, I would clarify it so, you know, while I was unsure of I mean, I'm still I mean, you know, there's no, I'm no way 100% of knowing, if, you know, what Biden would have done or I'm sorry, what Harris would have done, the, you know, female Biden, blues, you know? Yeah. Yeah. You, you know. You know, there's all that, you know, so whatever. But but, I guess the point that, that Iceland did on, and then I think I stick by, is that it's not, it's not a race between two opposing factions. It's a relay race. So one goes faster, one goes slower. You know, maybe on certain things, but but they're both racing in the same direction, and they're on the same team. So that's kind of my, you know, because I mean, I have to admit, despite the ceasefire, and it it does seem like Trump had something decided despite these international things, to sort of pull away from, from Ukraine, from the proxy war in Ukraine, which, you know, is a real flip flop, you know, so there's. Yeah. It's it's hard to say, you know, it's hard to say either way. It's hard to say. Would, Biden be pushing Biden? What would Harris be doing? It would what? Harris have Elon Musk, with, you know, with the hatchet, kind of like creating chaos? No, I don't think so. I don't think they would have anything like that. They're, you know, they're the they're the, the, you know, the part of the team that is more about, you know, the preservation of the status quo. And, and Trump, I think is kind of, it's a different side of that. So but I guess what I'm that's all a convoluted way of me trying to say, I think Trump moves a lot faster on some things, and, Harris or the Democrats move a lot faster on other things. So, would they have been worse? I don't know. They would. It would have been the same shit in different degrees. My my favorite, thing about this, is it's the same, same turd in a different bucket. You know, that doesn't mean that there isn't substantive differences between, Harris being in office and Trump being in office. Because they're they're just are I mean, both. Yeah. Look at Medicare, Medicaid. Yeah. No, no, there are multiple issues we probably should briefly discuss. But it is interesting because because I've heard, Josh Freeman, is a former ambassador to Saudi Arabia. And he was on so I have to look, he was on this morning with, the war was. Sorry. Mismanaged. I'm sorry. One second. Yeah, it takes time. I guess. You know. Yeah. It was on This morning with Lawrence Wilkerson. Lawrence Wilkerson is a former chief of staff, former Army guy. Colonel. I think it was former chief of staff to Colin Powell, who was a secretary. All right. And he you know, I listen to these guys and, you know, they they are just incredibly thoughtful human beings. I don't agree with them on everything, you. Know, incredibly thoughtful human beings. And this morning they argue similar to what you said is that there's in a certain way it is a really rich. But but but it's similar to not the same. The Republicans are like venture capitalists. They want to go in charge almost half of profit instantly by basically destroying the Dems are more sort of industrialists. They want to invest. It's going to take longer to have profit come through. And, you know, and so they're not willing to chop everything down in. Order to invest in what. It's it's I think of it as a metaphor. I'm not talking for the other. I know. Although Biden did invest in infrastructure and culture, as you as you may well know, there were I may get some number slightly wrong, some I think it's 5000 electric vehicle charging stations, fully up and functional. But Trump and his administration have removed it because there's no climate change. So so yeah, again, in the big picture issues you know this really they're the same. They're they're on the capitalist team. It's a economic system that, you know, has put in between every 4 to 7 years has a crisis is failing, is destroying our climate. It is a failure notwithstanding everything that's around us. Right. It needs to be changed. There are subtle differences. And as you just said, there are meaningful, subtle differences between those two teams. I think the thing you know, however, there are some things that are not so well-trained members of the same. Team. Potentially, though, you know, understand what I'm saying? Like, yeah. No. Exactly. So what Biden and Harris did, in terms of of promoting and supporting Israel's genocide of the Palestinian right, excuse me, and supporting and promoting the attack on students who are opposing the genocide, direct attack on the universities and on the students. Trump has simply taken a little further along. We have this young man, Carlisle. His name is I mean, who was a graduate. There's a. I think it's how, you know. How you graduate student, undergrad, graduate student at Columbia University was the, was the, had been accepted to the graduate program. Yeah. Was was the was he, negotiator with the university and between the university and the students, respectful guy here on a green card, you know, I mean, permanent citizen, permanent since he wasn't some kid who was just married. To an American marriage. In. And she was picked up and and basically taken away to New Orleans, somewhere in Louisiana. Right. Ice. Right. He wasn't. It's not like he was warned. You have to appear. He was picked up, handcuffed and taken several thousand miles away. Yeah. This is authoritarian. Yeah. She's fascist. Yeah. The behavior. Yeah. This lawyer couldn't get in touch with him, all right? His wife couldn't get a job. Now, there's been a brouhaha, and we know where he is. And things are moving along at the point is, is if they can do the editing and it's it's an issue for those who might be listening, who will say, well, I don't really care about my because one, I'm not a student. Sure, I'm not in a green card. Three I don't support the Palestinians. Somebody could say that a threat is is that bullies, authoritarians? Fascists always start with the weakest. And if they can get at the weakest, they can get at any of us that, of course, is Pastor Mueller's poem from World War two. Right? The first they came for. Right. And we know where that first came. For the communists. Then they came for the socialists, then they came for they came. And I didn't speak up. And then they came for the Jews, and I didn't. And then they came for me, and there was no one wants to speak up. And so the reason, I mean, it's important for many reasons, first is because it's unjust and he needs to be supported. Church, first of all. Because of course he did, was oppose Jenison. That is a mandate for all of us. But the way that this was handled by Trump, I think even though the skids were greased, as it were, by Biden and Harris. Yeah, I don't think I don't think it would have been quite the same had she won. I don't think I don't. Know, I could be wrong, you know, there's so there's there's two. Sides to this or not two sides. There's two aspects to this that I've been thinking about. One is, yes, Mahmoud Khalil. And the other is the ceasefire. Right. And, the so there's, there's that, surface layer stuff that it's like this one happened under Trump, you know, you know, that there was a ceasefire under Trump. There was the, the, the crazy persecution of this, of the student, of a Palestinian student, under Trump as well, however. So, like if we look at the under, I'm sorry. Under who. Under Trump. The Kaleo where they went after Kelly under Trump. Both of these things happened under Trump. The question is, would it have happened under, under Harris or Biden or whoever? So the you know, I was thinking about this, one part, the I think we don't or, you know, it's easy to get lost in the mix, that that occurred to me, it was like, okay, so, I mean, students weren't back yet, right? So, like, there wasn't, the the persecution, the crackdown on students, which had begun, before, you know, had not it wasn't it wasn't time for that to happen. Similarly with the cease fire. So, you know, you could say that. Oh, well, under Harris, there wouldn't have been a cease fire. And that's something that that I've thought, you know, it's not, you know, it's possible, however, similarly, you know, there's there's kind of this aspect of it that is not like the Israeli army was exhausted. They have a bunch of people refusing to be called up for the draft. They were, you know, they, they had taken have taken very large losses, and the effect on their economy and everything else is pretty, pretty extreme. So it's like they needed a break, clearly. I don't think that they, you know, I'm not so sure that that them stopping had anything to do with Trump. I mean, clearly they waited until Trump was around until they could give Trump the win, so to speak. But I'm not so sure that there's, you know, I'm not so sure that it's like Trump had some substantively better policy. It's more, you know, tough because that's the line right from, from like when I talk to, conservatives or whatever, the line is like, well, this would never have happened under Trump because Trump is strong. Biden did it, and they walked all over. Right? Wyckoff went to tell everyone to Tel Aviv, and he demanded that right, Netanyahu talk with him. And then he said, right, it's going to happen. Right? That's that's a counterfactual history is impossible to sort of exact what we know for a fact. What we know for an unequivocal thing, is that some 60% of the munitions that Israel uses comes from us. President Biden had wanted to stop the genocide. He could have stopped that, we know, for an unequivocal sign. And it does fulfill the definition of genocide, both in the international community and also 18 U.S.C. 1091, which is the US genocide law tells us right here. Right? We know. And and by rights, this should have been, you know. It's illegal for us to be funding them under our own laws. Yeah, exactly. You know. But what and what we also know it appears to be an unequivocal I don't know if you can say that, but is that phase one of that ceasefire is in effect, and there will be no phase two at the Israelis. Have it to. Cease fire continuously while it's been in effect, both in Gaza but also the the cease fire. In Lebanon, however. Yeah. And it looks like they want to go back to work. What's intriguing is true. Yeah. I mean, and I don't say this with any sense of glee or joy or I mean, like, you know, as socialists, we want people to reach their highest potential. In order to do that, they have to be sent and educated and safe and alive. And that's true whether you are today. Right, today. Yeah. A Zionist soldier who hates all Arabs or somebody else. No, I mean, we are we are the believers in redemption, if you will. Right. So but what's what I'm afraid is going to happen is they will attack again. Yeah, yeah. Yemen has already said they've already begun their their blockade of the Straits. And what I'm terribly worried about is that both Hezbollah and Iran and probably Jordan and possibly Egypt, are going to send forces again because this is gone just way too far. Yeah. And nobody, you know, the people who could stop Israel from literally committing suicide seem unable or unwilling to do it. Right. Do it. Trump on I mean. Yeah. There, there the there's the death and destruction that's going to come about because of what these guys are doing is just horrific on all sides. There's just no two ways about it. Right? So similarly, it's like the, the other thing, you know, another one, another, you know, potential difference, you know. Right. Or you know, we, we look at different policies, you know, the Ukraine pulling away from Ukraine, right? Is, you know, like, is it Trump, of course, is not in it for anybody else. It's not it's not like going to stop the proxy war in Ukraine because he thinks it's, you know, the right thing to do in some, you know, moral sense. You know, Earth. What is morality. But but again, it's like the same sort of thing. It's like you're talking about the sort of regional conflagration, in the, in the Middle East is that are they pulling out of Ukraine so they can start a war with Iran? I mean, like, what's the. Yeah. If, I know that they don't if there's one thing I know about the US government, it's that are they imperialist. You know, I'm going to talk about the post office. Yeah. The the sort of imperial apparatus of the US government. It's that they never do anything for a good reason. It's like there's. Always it, right? It's always in, in service of of, of what? We we not not you and I, we merit our government wishes. That's that is correct. That is. Correct. Right. So it's like, what's next? Well, and you know, again that the it is it is challenging. I've had multiple discussions. Not all very pleasant, I must admit, thinking about Gaza or Ukraine, but you know, it's it's it is so to look at the history of, the breakup of the Soviet Union, which is really the only way you can tell. You can talk, I think talk about what happened in Ukraine. I mean, we promised we gave our word. I mean, our word has to mean something that NATO would not extend one inch beyond the border of Germany when we when the USSR, Gorbachev allowed the reunification of Germany. I mean, they had to agree and they did agree. And that was a one of the quid pro quo for them. And then we expanded and, you know, Russia was weak. Yeltsin was president. They didn't do anything. And they expanded. They expanded to Romanian republics when when in 2014, the United States, oh, since the end of World War two, has overthrown some 130 governments. I don't overthrew, aided. And the overthrow of the, the president of of Ukraine, who wanted a neutral Ukraine tied both to Russia and to the EU. We overthrew him, you know, it's like, all right, what do you think's going to happen? Right? You. And that is what to which the only thing that's repeated. Only thing this be. Oh, by the way, just before that intervention where that government was overthrown, just before that, both the government of Ukraine and the government of Russia had signed a 40 year lease with the Crimean naval base that Russia has, which, by the way, nobody's aware of are very few aware that has been a Russian naval base since, if I'm not mistaken, 1789. Correct? Yeah. I'm so glad you mentioned that. At least for a really long time. So when we overthrow the government that throws all of this into turmoil and throws. Their only. Naval base, their only warm water naval base, like me. It's just it's like and again, please don't misunderstand you, I this is I've listened to Yeltsin and I listen to Putin and I listen to Lavrov and I listen to a bunch of these guys. These guys are the first of all. What you want is not Yeltsin, not harsh, man. Harsh. But, you know. That was just a mistake. I do I do think. Religious and Christian from our I mean, these are, you know, these are I mean, these are not like, my God, stop me. Not quite right. One has to me they're question what they want from their eyes. You know they lost 1,000,007 a million in World War one. 27, 28 million. World War two. Why in God's name? 35. They still do. 25. 35 I believe all. Right. I mean, the off by 10 million people know. How about this? They lost a lot of people in World War two, right? It's understandable. They don't want NATO on their border. And it's. And and even even though the United States, which lost nothing like it can understand, should be able to understand this because we almost went to war with the Soviet Union in 1961 when when, Khrushchev intermediate missiles in Cuba, I mean, so this is not something we shouldn't understand, but we've the our policy has been not to try and deal with Russia as an equal since the fall of the Soviets or with the Soviet Union. It's to try and break up, to dominate. All right. That's that is a problem. And that is why that is why whenever this is discussed with people that I know who we're not you and me. And it comes very heated, very fast because. Right. So you're taking the Russians. Yeah. Able to invade should be consistent because you oppose what the Israelis are doing. Yeah. Two separate issues. But there are there are some similarities. But you have to know the history in order to be able to discuss the Russian. Right. And and so this is an awful lot of words. I'm sorry to say. I'm sorry you're talking quite so much, but a lot, a lot of words you say I don't, you know, I had the opportunity. To stop this at the airport and he didn't want to do it I don't know. Oh yeah. I'm, I'm not convinced I'm in fact I remain utterly unconvinced despite lots of people who say Trump is a man of peace. I don't he's not he's not a mess. Sorry. Peace peace peace. He's just a narcissistic guy who wants as much as you can for yourself. Yeah, it may be that one of the fallouts is that that more does stops, and I hope it does, because that could also add to anything. Yeah. What we then have to take a look back again at what's going on in the Middle East. You know, there was the ceasefire. It has been broken not by the Palestinians. No. And no. Not by the Lebanese side either. It is, by the way, I saw the latest count was, 1250 violations of the ceasefire in Lebanon. And I think it was coming up on 200, Something like that. Yeah. In Gaza, you know, this is true. So, so the the the but, you know, Biden, Biden, Harris had the opportunity to stop this whole. Yeah. And they did not there are good moral reasons to stop the horror, even if you're fully supportive of Israel, even if you're fully supportive. I mean, for me, I do not consider myself, for example, an enemy of Ukraine, but I don't see it killing a million Ukrainian boys. I just don't see what that does. Yeah, I think it was not done. So we'll see what happens now with. Yes. Trump. But but there are. Notwithstanding those differences. Yeah. Other differences between Harris administration and Trump that are domestic in nature, that are essentially words. Yeah. You know, and you can start. Very much sharp. Yeah. Department of education, environment of Health and Human Services, CDC. You know, there would not be a, a complete for, you know, a complete I was going to say clown, but I don't in a public form want to be that nasty. But but, you know, I don't know what's possible to say about RFK junior. I mean, I don't know when it's possible to say this is a. Guy, I think clown, basically gender. Yeah. But, you know, this is a man who is now in charge of health and Human services. And that puts him in charge of the whole caboodle of our health system. This is central. Yeah, he wants to, even though there are multiple studies. For example, just for example, he's been done benefits that show there is no relationship between autism and and immunization. He wants to fund yet another study to prove what's already been proven. While we stop. Stop immunizing against measles. Not again. There are state implications in all of this, this this epidemic. Now. Yeah. Tell me. About. Yeah, tell me what's going on. I mean, I know some. Measles is a disease that probably jumped probably jump from bovine animals to us some thousands of years ago. It is a disease that when I was a kid, there was no vaccine alliance. I had measles, you know, and mostly it's just a pretty yucky disease. But it can do a handful of bad things, including cause sterility caused encephalitis, impact your immune system and in ways that are profoundly negative for a long term in kids who would die. I mean, you can't kill. Like, a fair amount of of. It's 1 in 1000 are hospitalized. And I've forgotten the number of some number who die. But it's but it's not it's not necessarily appearances. I'm not I mean, it's easy to look at. It's it's not it's not benign and and very, very immunization is extremely extreme. Exceptional exception. They are not are zero which is if you have a person infected, how many people that they come in contact with who become infected you they are not for measles is something like 20. You will infect a bunch of people, right? And you become infectious before you're symptomatic and on and on and on aerosolized. And you know it's droplets aerosol. Wow. It is not to be toyed with. It is. It was a killer. And where it didn't kill, it was a disabling, you know, so we seeing that with polio is not any different. We're having people who are reticent to get to be immunized against polio as well. You know, that's the those are the issues that Trump, his secretary of Health and Human Services, Kennedy, and all the people under Kennedy are bringing forward. They are putting our children at extreme risk. And all of us actually have extremes. And, and, and even though some of these men then they mostly are men, went to the Ivy League schools and since they are really charlatans, they may be they may they may have got they may have expensive degrees. They are not educated individuals and, and they are literally putting our kids at risk. And you see it in Texas now in New Mexico, right? Yeah. What's going. So there's some thousand 1500 I've forgotten no cases. Several hundred have been hospitalized in a handful of deaths. Two three number. But but it's number. But but but the kids who are sick may remain sick for a good while. And this is, you know, this is easily preventable, with immunization. So, I mean, you would not have seen this. You would not have seen this in a Harris Biden Biden-Harris administration. Just that's a difference. The attack, on abortion, abortion rights. I mean, it was it did occur under Biden. Yeah. I mean, Roe v Wade was overturned, even though the dams have for years promised they would put into statute that it's legal, they never did it. But, you know, the Republicans are now going after so-called medical abortion. There's a fish for the, that you can, you know, you have to get right, physicians or. That's a plan B pill for. Well, it's it's it's I if I'm not mistaken, plan B is a contraceptive. They're going to use high dose contraceptive, high dose to act similarly to, misoprostol. Misoprostol. But it's just different. This is this is the anti progestin that stops the progesterone. So the fetus can't develop any further. And then a gland and it causes the uterus to contracting expel the products conception. It's it's, you know, multiple cells. It's not a fetus. It's a clump of cells. What is nice. Yeah. I mean, yes, it's potential. Like, I'm sure, billions otherwise. But, you know, it is not my call. Your call for what a woman decide to do with her body when she becomes pregnant and feels she cannot have the. And and I say this, because I remember, you know, and I can't remember if we've told this story before, but it's worth telling in this context for from 1995 to 1999, I was appointed. This is bizarre history. But I was appointed as the chief of the Division of Emergency Medicine at the University of Florida Health Center. And I had an administrative pair who sort of helped me not screw stuff up in medicine. It was this wonderful guy, ten, 15 years older than me. His name. He's not dead. His name was Sam le Palo Alto, Samuel Apollo. And we worked very closely together. And and one day, at the end of a long day of very chaotic work, we sat and for some reason, abortion came up. And Sam told me a story that I have repeated a few times. But it's worth repeating. And he said to me, I said, you know, Joe, you know, I'm a former Air Force air commander in Vietnam. I'm a former San Antonio policeman, I'm a nurse, I'm a nurse and nationalist, and I'm your administrative center and I'm a Republican. But when I finished nurse anesthesia school, I was on call in upstate New York. Now this is pre Roe v Wade in pre, New York, having made it legal to get the much I was on call one day and I got a call from emergency department and there was a young woman who had what's called an acute ambulance. Acute acute meaning there's some disaster in abdominal. And she's. And this person has to go to the operating room emergency. An acute a generic doesn't say what's wrong, just that something's wrong. So she's going to have to come to the operating room. So I go to he here. He said to do my champ evaluation. And it turns out she was a I believe he said 2327 year old black woman. Turns out she was a teacher. Turns out she had become pregnant. Turns out she'd had a backstreet abortion. Turns out she had a perforated uterus and now was needed. An emergent operation. So he did all the pre-op work. Should to take good care of you. Don't worry. Brought her up to the operating room. And as she was preparing to induce anesthesia to like what they say, put her to sleep and do synesthesia, she put her hand up as she was going to put the mask over her, and she said, please, please don't let me die. And Sam, the superb human being, that he was a superb nurse, the superb man, and he was so I promise you, I'll take care of you. You will die. She died on the table. And so Sam told me that story, and he said, Joe, I'm a former air commando from Vietnam. I'm a former cop, I'm a nurse, I'm a nurse, and I'm a Republican, he said. But I will never support any politician of whatever stripe who seeks to overturn Roe v Wade because he had this experience of what happens. You won't by overturning by making safe abortions illegal. You won't eliminate abortions, you'll eliminate safe abortions, and women will die. Right. He had personal experience of this, and that's what he told me. The story. And we've now seen a handful of reports of women who have become very ill, sterile or died because of their. So that probably would not have gone as far as it's already gone. And as far as is going to go, the better the medications available by mail, you know, so women can as long as she's not more than about 12 weeks, ten weeks, they can take these and have and the abortion will occur. And become legal as well. Yeah. What we have to decide is how are we going to respond to this? Yeah. I'm just reminded of the Jane project from the 1960s and 70s. Right. You know, the Jane I know. What's the Jane project? The Jane project was a group of women who got together and said, it is illegal for us to have abortions. Abortions are still happening, but they're really insane. So they got together with, a person who said he was, at the time, a physician on abortion but knew how to do abortions, and they would send them to him. All illegal, of course. And then they they themselves were trained and they non physicians, not necessarily even nurses when performance procedures, because there was no place else to go. I mean, there was if you were a wealthy woman, you can always find a doctor who was around. We have to do a DNC to start your period because you have interruption of your period, right? What would they do in an abortion? But they didn't call it right. But but if you weren't aware, it was extremely difficult. And so the Jane Project tried to take care. Now those who. Were eventually found out they were arrested. But then Roe v Wade happened and they were released. So whether that's what's going to happen again is, you know, one doesn't know, but but it is as clear as can be and is is quitters can be that when they're often not always but often morals and legality are grouped. And when they are it's easy and it's good. But when law and morality are no longer congruent, I think we have to ignore the law and do what is morally correct. I think that's what tragedy. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, like, what's his name said? Which who wrote civil disobedience. Those throw right. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Yes. Yeah. Yeah yeah yeah I mean you know. Yeah it's tough and I think we're going to see a lot of that. I mean, we're, we're, you know, a part of what makes the thing with, not to double back too much, but, but with, what was the name, Kahlil. Yeah. Part of what makes that so important is that he didn't do anything. I mean, he was part of a student protest. And but he he hasn't they haven't brought any charges against him. The thing that he's being detained for, and, you know, it's not really prosecuted, but but they're trying to deport him for is for opposing, a genocide. You know, it's for it's for free speech. Right. And it's for it's not even for doing the ethical thing that breaks the law. It's simply for doing the ethical thing. And I mean, this is, you know, you talk about fascist, the creep towards fascism. This is part of that creep towards fascism. And it happened under Biden, and it's happening under Biden. It's more of a sprint. Yeah, I don't know. I mean. Yeah, it's it's certainly there's certainly a continuity of, Continuity of, of, un care or was it who. Did not stand up for the students and oppose the genocide? It was Biden's administration. Quite. That was it. Yeah. It did absolutely nothing as southern states not also some southern states made it illegal to give water or food to people standing in long lines for to vote. I mean, his, his, his department didn't do anything. Who was who or. Who ran Harris. Yeah. Yeah, right. I mean, you know, who was it who did nothing for months after the January, what was the January 9th, riots? And I think in, in Washington, it was Biden's administration. So, you know, they have set this up, they have set up, unfortunately set us up for all of this. Yeah. For that, I think that is unforgivable. There's a lot of things you can forgive, but that is really unforgivable. Yeah, yeah. And they could have I mean, all they had to do was say that they would stop. They didn't. I mean, again, like, it's we could have not had Trump, they gave us Trump, deliberately, whether intentionally or not. You know, it was, a deliberate choice, to, to prioritize his, subservience to, to the war industry and to the, to the a pack and kooky, to the Israel lobby, lobbies, you know, over, over even defeating this guy that they they talked up as, oh, he's the greatest fascist, you know, he's the second coming of Hitler. He's all this stuff. And maybe he is. Maybe he isn't. But, I mean, if you felt that strongly, then, for fuck's sake, you could have done one simple thing in one. Or two, you know, any number of things. So. Yeah. So, I mean. It's 29% of the people. I mean, I think it's pretty clear the reason that she lost was because a bunch of people simply said, I'm not voting for. Right. You know, the people who put Biden in office stayed home because she would not differentiate herself from Biden with regard to the genocide, because she ran away from these other issues that we talked about. But at the top of it, when we started talking, I mean, okay. Maybe if not, if this is a vote. There should be neither should get to. So they should have to start all over with the new batch. You know, there's a there's a million things that need to be done to make this into a real democracy. Yeah. But at this point, at least. So so let's talk. About what else is going on. Let's talk about the, I mean, you know, this Medicare Medicaid stuff is pretty fucking wild, man. It is. They are, you know, they say they're not going after it. But, you know, they they mandated all these cuts, this huge budget cut, and it's like, where's that budget cut? Supposedly by eliminating fraud. Now, this is a major talking point that that I think we should address, is this sort of there's this sort of. And it comes it's not just Elon Musk. It is clearly one of their talking. I mean, it has been one of their talking points. You know, the sort of idea of, of, you know, oh, well, you know, there's all this waste and there's all this fraud and, and, and we've got a, you know, we're just trying to fix things and make things run, you know, more efficiently and, you know, but, but it seems like there's more going on, here. And, you know, one part of that is this agenda, you know, they always wanted to cut basically all social services, cut social services, give the money to the rich and to the, to the rich and to the rich, to the arms industry and and just directly in the form of tax cuts. That's part of what makes this whole fiscal, conservatism thing such a load of horseshit is, is, you know, they say, oh, we got to get the budget under control. But then they do these tax cuts for the rich that just, you know, and, you know, dump money into the military that just, you know, makes the, the debt shoot up. So it's not it's not actually about debt. It's about, a cohesive agenda of cutting social services, attacking the poor and, you know, feeding the rich, everything. Well, I think, you know, I mean, I'm I think you're right. I think that the the way that I at least look at this is that from the time that FDR put forward the New Deal, the right that was weak at that point, the right is attempting to overturn it. And it's taken what is about 45 to now that 60, 80 years later, it's taken eight years, something like that. But they have slowly but surely managed to roll back elements of, you know, and what you did was save capitalism, right? Come on. It seemed radical, but it really, in a certain way, was right. And this is what I want to give FDR and the people around him, including his wife, Eleanor, was an amazing woman who they did things that were thought to be undoable. But the right has attempted to roll that back since it was put into place, and now it's finally coming to the, the, the the issue has always been that if you have a working class that feels somehow securing themselves right. Marx wrote about this able to basically have free time, time to read things, to music, to sports, in addition to slave away in factories that they will be able to develop themselves. Not otherwise it wouldn't be. It wouldn't be the way you have things that you you would have type of, an opportunity to develop themselves and become complete human beings. The mind is always a and even it's a small and there are small, progressive changes such as Medicare, Medicaid, Social Security. They are clearly going after Social security is an area that it would that would, could be made solvent for the next roughly 100 years simply by applying Social Security tax, everything now up to about $120,000 to an up to 500 tax, you know, so so the even the wealthy who have paychecks, you know, just continue to pay. It's easy enough to sustain. Like you're just like, oh, you're rich, so. You just don't have to pay. Like, what the fuck? It's just it's, Is it? You know, Medicaid is a service that pays for. It's a it's a dual federal state fund program, and it pays for for just, for example, services for all people who have to go into nursing homes. I mean, nobody, nobody can afford, first of all, nursing home care is in general horrific. I wouldn't wish this on anybody any time. Are the good places? Yes. Or the easy to find no other bad places more common than not? Yes, I could tell you some stories, but I. But but but they're funded out of Medicaid for the most part. So people work their entire lives, they're forced to spend down everything that they have and they can get on Medicaid and other demented, let's say they have to go into a nursing home and Medicaid. Basically, they're going to. So what will happen to these people? What will happen to the to the nursing homes themselves? I mean, you can say they should be better. Should be, but you can't just wipe them out with a, you know, flick of a switch and say, everything's going to be fine. I mean, I know how that. Go, right? Right. And furthermore, Medicaid pays for, you know, in child health services, right? You're going to eliminate that as well. I mean, so the I'm willing to concede, I really can see it in the government of the United States, there is wasteful funds. I'm willing to say, absolutely right, let's figure out how to get rid of it. But you don't do it with an ax. Investigate. You study, you use a scalpel, you fine tune, you optimize. There's a million things you do, but you don't do it because you. And I can tell you where the fucking place you should look is. The politics department. In Texas, which has not passed, an audit. But I believe the last, at least the last five years. I can't tell you where you go. If they can't tell you where the money's gone. And that means only it means many things. But at least two things. One, it's going in somebody's pocket. Two, it's going into programs that are probably illegal. So, you know, that's the first place. But is that the place? You know, and secondly, if you add up the cuts that they say they're going to make with a tax cuts and they want to give to the ultra wealthy, it's actually exactly right on. They're going to cut all this Department of Education, Health and Human Services, Medicare, Medicaid, all this stuff is going to be blocked so that taxpayer can be given to the ultra wealthy. Yeah, it's it's criminal and yeah, literally criminal endless and such. It is such a stupid trick to it's like such an obvious I mean it should be obvious. Of course. Well what did you know Lyndon Johnson, who was my president during that war? That was my war shit, you know, and there was many things you can say about the guy. Not all of them. Good. But one of the things you said was, as long as you can convince a white man that he's better, the lowest white man. You say that he's better than a black man. You can pick his pocket. Well, he's looking over at the back. The black man. In fact, you should know that, in fact, no, he's in fact not. You don't even have to pick his pocket. He'll empty his pocket into your hands. Was long as he thinks he's better than. I did not know that. Oh, yeah, that's Johnson. Johnson was. I mean, you know, I'm offensive and. Wrong. But full of contradictions. This was not a man. This was not a he was a complex character. Yeah. And and he tried. He failed. He tried to do some good stuff. Overall. A failure because of the war. Yeah. Of course. Yeah. But but but you know, that is the result of that is that that is what's happening now. And unfortunately the Democratic Party has played right along with them. They don't they have not raised the issue to work here. They have betrayed the working class in the least since Clinton, maybe even before. But they've betrayed the working class and became just another party of the rich. So it's it's I have a much harder time being angry at my fellow citizens who are, you know, working two minimum wage jobs to try to make ends meet. Yeah, I voted for Trump. I mean, no, I don't support them. I don't support, but but but it's our job to like lay out what's going on and to offer an alternative. But right now there is a greater party. Yeah, but what I'm certain is. There is a, there's it's and that's I mean, the thing that I think it's deliberately I would say the gets missed, but I think it gets deliberately distracted from by the sort of mainstream liberal media, is that there is legitimate reasons for people to want change. And if you offer people on the one hand, we're not going to change things. And on the other hand, this this charlatan Trump who says, I am going to change things, then a lot of fucking people are just going to pick the one that says they're going to do something different. They're going to make it better that that they that he sees your pain and he's going to do something about it. Oh, now what's he going to do it? It's not going to help you. Of course it's going to make things worse, you know. But but. You know, I mean they. Do it because he's doing it. You can see he's doing it right. I mean, yeah. I think you I think you're right on the money and, you know, and I mean, again, it's it's I was having this discussion with, my son down in, Miami, some a couple of months ago. And he reminded me. And he's right. He's a, you know, pop, there's no, solidarity, but class solidarity. And he's right. I mean, it's not it's not it's not the DEA. It doesn't matter. I mean, diversity, equality, inclusion doesn't it doesn't matter that you want women in brown and black. You want it. It's just not enough. Not a problem. One of our big problems is that, you know, at the end of World War two with a McCarthy period, the national and the National Security Act 1947 to be a socialist, a communist, a leftist was criminalized, just actually not unlike what's being done to the kids on campus. Now we'll be done even more, I'm afraid. And so what we were left with was sort of was liberalism. And diversity. Inclusion, diversity, equity, inclusion, I guess. Don't misunderstand me. It's not I don't oppose those things, but it's not enough. You've got to have the economic basis for all this. It's. I could be I could be Clarence Thomas. Clarence Thomas is a black man who grew up in the South, but the guy is an utter corrupt thug. Yeah. I don't care what his skin color is, you know, margarine, rain is a woman, you know? You know, we are not better off if we're governed by a bunch of laws which range from. I'm not sorry. You know, it's not. It's just not enough. So you got to have class politics as well as guy. And what? What was eliminated? Yeah. Harsh politics over the years. And now elimination of diversity equity inclusion. You know what these guys want is 1950s America. That's what they're aiming for. That's what they think was it wasn't worth any search. And worse and worse and worse. You know maybe what they really want actually is a Handmaid's Tale. Margaret Atwood was worried about that. That's why she. And I fear that she was more right than. Yeah, you know, I don't even. I swear, you know, a lot of these guys, I don't even think they they give a shit what they get. I think that it's, you know, there's so much. And, you know, this is like a a real aspect of capitalism is so fucking shortsighted. It doesn't it doesn't matter. But it's not even not potentially in their own interest. Ultimately that doesn't matter as long as I get mine right now. Immediately. And that's the kind of I mean, that is in a lot of ways, that's the policy that we see. But that's kind of the point I was trying to make with the difference between the two wings of the capitalist class, the venture capitalists, they want it all right now, tear it all down, get the profit run versus those who would say longer term, slow to get our return on investment. You know, there's they're both still from the same class but different approaches to getting what they want. To extracting their. Yeah, we need more than we need something that it will look after our planet and our people. And when I show our people I know we've had this discussion before. Yeah. I don't just mean the people of the United States, although clearly that is our people. Those are our people. But in this world that we live in, what happens 10,000 miles away from here impacts us as well. So we have to view the world as our world and the people as our people, and figure out how to come to grips with the changes we've made on the, the climate that will make this place potentially unlivable. Yeah. Within 50 years. No, I mean, you'll still be alive. I but you will. Right? Grandkids will be. I mean, this is very, very scary stuff. And we are not we are not doing it. We're not him. Yeah, yeah. That's it man. You got it just right on. Oh, boy. What a shit show. You know, it is, it is, it is not good. And, you know, it's it's easy to, to get, so mad at one side or the other, you know, that that you lose sight of sight again. What? The sides. But but it's it's what to me, it's it's it's what there is. And I mean, if you make it, you have to make a choice. I mean, I mean, my family was extremely unhappy with me. I did my first of all, it was for George McGovern in 1972, but this time I could not. I would never. Vote for Trump. Trump. So I mean, yeah, for, the Green Party can just, you know, a perfect. No, no. It was either do nothing. Yeah. You know. Yeah, I hope not. To my mind, there's a lot of things one can disagree on. And I would still say, but I support you. I don't agree with you. I'll try and convince you. Yeah, I still support you. I voted all the years for these Dems. Yeah, I helped. The genocide campaign. Genocide is my red line. I'm sorry. Yeah. Me too. Yeah, yeah. Yes. So I'm going to make it worse. Probably. But I could not see my way to reward Harris. Yeah, absolutely. For perpetrating a Jennison. Unquestionably, unquestionably will make it worth. They are part of the same. That's you know, because you get this thing you're they're like, oh, you don't like, you don't like Harris. Then why do you like Trump? It's they're part of the same thing. That's what makes me so angry about it. That's why I continue being, pissed off about all this stuff is, or, you know, I'm caring. You know, ultimately, it's because it is. It's it's Trump isn't better. That's the whole the whole fucking point. You know. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Right. Yeah. Yeah. What was that about? Is that thing is on my screen. Can you see it? I can see it. Yeah. Some ham that I did to the machine computer things. I. What they did. Yes. You know the changes in and for the massive cuts to federal government. Know there's some quarter of a million federal employees have now been thrown out of work. You know, this is not going to end well. Yeah. Oh, yeah. We should we should. Crash the. Economy. Right? Yeah. We should we should say a few words about, about what's happening. You have an interesting, take on, on what? Elon Musk is doing kind of my, my, or what I have been thinking, is that it's, you know, it's part of it's sort of in one respect, it's part of this blitzkrieg kind of you know, like all out assault. When we saw that in Wisconsin, you know, the Heritage Foundation, Heritage Foundation, is, you know, kind of behind, a lot of these sort of policies, they draft in. 2025, they. Run behind. 26, 20, 25, and they were behind what, Scott Walker did to Wisconsin. And we saw this just, you know, blistering attack, on all fronts. And they just the plan with them is to just hit you with so much shit that you just can't even. And then to distract with sort of key issues, you know, things that are really high profile. But but then, you know, to just hit you on all sides, and do, you know, push as much as that of their agenda as they can as quickly as they can? And I think that's so there's, there's some aspect of, of what's happening with the, there's that there's also I think, kind of like he is a deeply stupid person. He's not he's not some genius. All the things that he takes credit for, somebody else did. He's he doesn't understand the shit that he's screwing around with. And so they're making these insane cuts, that, you know, just, like, sort of, you know, that are counterproductive even to their own stated aims at times. Other times, you know, they they're right in line with what they want to do, and they're all pretty fucking fascist. So, but but, when we had talked earlier, you kind of had this, you know, you're more, Well, I'll let you say it yourself. We should have a couple things to say about this. I think the big picture, the big picture for anybody who's listening to us talk, I think the big picture needs to be focused on first. And. And the big picture is it's not about HHS, CDC, Medicare, Medicaid. It may be the, you know, legalization of abortion, the Department of Education. It's not about any of those things, of course. It's about all of them. This is a concerted attack. And, and and again, I want to be exceptionally careful with my use of words. I believe this is a concerted anti-government. I would argue it's fascistic in nature. And we can go into the definition of that if we want. Yeah, right. But we can. The reader, I mean, a reader and listener can look it up. Definition racism, racism, check and ignoring lot of national shit. I know the consolidation of industry and government shit. So I would argue that this is this is a fascist project and we're paying if we pay attention to it, because the things that we think about the motion, things seem to impact us the most. Right? Right. It's it's all of a piece. And therefore it's not that I will support, for example, my, our Palestinian brothers and sisters, but I'm going to ignore the rights of women in the United States to have to control their body. It's all of a piece I don't. And all that. And that's important. For our local, Comrades, if you will. Yeah. Well, you know, I of course, I support I support abortion rights or Medicare for all, but but but the Palestinians. No. I'm sorry. No, no, I don't I don't I mean, I understand you can't do everything always, but this is all of a piece. And anyone who would say when I just suggested a moment ago, I can support this, but not that I don't want to support that. I don't want to think about it. I don't think we can do that. You have to understand that this is a concerted attack across multiple fronts, but the end is the same. The ending destruction of, well, what is it? The liberal state. Well, you know, there are those who consider themselves on the left who I have read about. They're kind of gleeful that Trump and Musk are attacking the government of the United States. Well, I sort of understand. I mean, I sort of get where they're coming from. That's a statement because they're not doing this to make the government better for the people. They're doing this to enrich the few. There's plenty of things we can oppose. We should approach that the government has done and is doing full stop. And there are only a certain there's only a certain kind of energy quotient, if you will. We can put in just so many issues. I know you got to choose your issues, but but what's being done by Trump and his people, Musk, among others, is a concerted attack across multiple fronts to destroy government. Kind of as a servant, I know it's not really been a servant of the people, but it's I'd be a servant of the people. Yeah, destroyer. And that's what's kind of the approach. Now, what what Musk is actually doing, you know, I mean, your comment, he's not really a very smart guy, but listen. How about this? How about this? I will give him all the credit in the world. He's a genius. But, you know, he's not a genius. The 20 heroes forgive me for my younger comrades. The 20 year olds, the guys who call themselves big balls. The Fisher nickname of one of his. Who going to. Start doing cuts? I don't know shit from Shinola as my insurance write me so. But. But the truth is, I don't give him that much credit. He is a man born on third base side. He hit a, you know, a triple. I mean, this is crazy. This is crazy. But but what he is doing with illegally, it turns out that we'll see him stand up. Yeah, I'm convinced it is. It is. I mean, this is like a stretch to remember. But remember with Hitler was put in power as chancellor of Germany initially, in the first 2 or 3 years, there were multiple court appeals to stop his actions, and he lost a bunch of them. Yeah, there's an enabling act, right? All Trump needs now is an enabling that allows him to act. I decree Hitler can do anything you want, I believe. Yeah, I believe I could be wrong and I hope I'm wrong that what these guys are doing now is to make things so miserable that there will be demonstrations, more riots, demonstrations in the streets, agents provocateurs will raise a ruckus, caused violence, and Trump will declare martial law. And that's the end. That is the end. And, you know, people would say there are many. And I've heard them say it. People who I respect, okay, that are Republicans, two of whom. Are telling you that it can. Happen. It can happen. That's in the 50s. Third 19 in that in the early 60s, late 60s at the university, I'm sorry, in the early 60s at the University of Florida during the McCarthy period, a group of faculty were marched by the police through Main Street down to the police station. They were accused of being gay. What they were really was they were of the left. The stuff that we don't, the history we don't even know about because it's not right. It can happen here and it will happen again. And we have to I think we have to push it together. It's not Palestinian students and Arab students. Women. It's all of us together because this will impact all of us and we won't be in Washington. Only we will disagree on stuff. And we'll have to figure out. How you kind of come to grips with that. All right. Like a big on. The big issues justice, decency, humanity, morality, those there's no disagreements there. We have to figure out how we handle some of the smaller issues, that we have to have arguments. And still at the end of those arguments, we're still comrades, colleagues and friends. Yeah, yeah. Big issues, you know, as as James Baldwin said, we can disagree on things and still be friends unless the issue we disagree on. It gets my humanity right. And for me, genocide is that issue. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. So I think, you know, we have to look at the big picture of what Muskan, Trump and his people are doing, and not just Joe Campbell and figure out a plan of attack to oppose politically and nonviolently this attack on our government and our people, because it is in the last instance, until that minute and it's not and is our government is our them. I still. Believe. Yeah can concern and we we are we are way imperfect. We are way flawed. We made horrific mistakes. I mean we can have a whole session on those. But it's still we thought it could be and that's what we have to fight for. Well yeah. And look I mean, here's the thing is, you know, I am I am actually, you know, there's this there's this line of thinking, I think you're what you're referring to is that, you know, that, Trump and his buddies and Moscow, they're they're creating chaos, and that, you know, sort of flailing and, you know, hacking at things. So the hatchet, will make it more likely for the US empire to, to collapse, which, you know, I mean, for the world just, you know, probably, better than worse. And that's the thing about it is, I guess my, my sort of counterpoint to that, that idea, which I am sympathetic to, because I do think that we should stop being the, you know, world superpower that goes around and creates death and destruction everywhere we go. You know, is that that's not they're not doing it for that. And, and they're just as likely or more likely to achieve entirely different goals. Now, while I'm not, you know, of the sort of alarmist, but I don't think that I don't think that capitalism is in enough of a crisis for there to be fascism, for there to be an open out and out, fascist takeover. This is how we get there. I mean, this is the the sort of destruction of the good functions of the government don't help us get to a better thing. To a better place. You know, it's not that just helps us get to fascism, you know, full stop. Especially now. I just know that's what you just described is, is a discussion point that Christopher Hedges has also described. There is no opposition. They don't need to have jackboots in the streets. There's no opposition, but there is an opposition. If there is an opposition. Right. And that that then that that, tool will be pulled from the toolbox. But I think you're I actually think you're right. There is not enough of a crisis. They may make it, what they're doing may make it to such a maybe. Yeah. I mean, we're going to get there. One way or another, but because of climate change, it's one way or another. I mean, the one thing that you can count on from capitalism is that will continue destroying the world. It will continue, destroying the environment, and there will be other crises. It will it'll happen again. It'll keep happening and getting worse and worse, just like the climate crisis. It's just going to keep becoming worse and worse until you know. But but the thing is, so, you know, I do, I do, I don't well, I don't, you know, necessarily think, that, you know, I want something better for this country. You know, I want, I want, a different state, a better state, you know, a government that actually serves the people, and the interests of the people, you know, the the way, you know, there's there's times, you know, you can have your critiques of liberal democracy, and I truly do. I don't think that democracy is it is set up in the US is a real thing, let alone a functioning thing. But, to position yourself as a, defender of of that, not the status quo, but of that sort of pseudo democracy or to position yourself of, of a defender as a, to position yourself as a defender of democracy, period. As is an ideal or just people power as an ideal. I think that is a good thing. And so I do think that even for, for the further, you know, left of us, the kind of, you know, oppose the Imperial state, and think that it is in general a bad thing. I still think there's, there's a reason to to actively take an interest, even when it's, you know, even when it's stuff like cutting Medicare, you know, which I think really, you know, pretty much all leftists do oppose that sort of thing, but there's like the sort of, there's, I mean, I'll speak for myself. There's I, there's a, you know, a tendency towards complacency, like, oh, good. Or, you know, the sort of spiteful, like, not I don't mean spiteful towards the, the people that are being hurt but spiteful towards the overall government, you know, like, well, you know, like sooner the better. You know, maybe people will wake up, but that's not how people wake up. It's not, it's not. And the sooner the better. It's not for the better. It's. You know, I understand that impulse. You understand what I'm saying? You know, I really do. And I really understand the impulse. I just think that, it doesn't get us where. Right? That's kind of what I say. And that's and and that's the problem, you know? And. Yeah. How do we get there? This is all, I believe I believe it comes from the, Torah that says, you know, are we are obliged to start the journey toward justice. We are not obliged to finish. And we will we will live long, but we have to stop. Yeah. Like that and that. And and and, and, that, banner will be picked up by somebody else as we fall, as we will, as you know, I mean, I'm much older than you. I'll die before you then, you know. But but we have to start this. And the reason, you know, I mean, the reason to have these conversations and the reasons to put them on the web and the reasons to have them on the, iPods or whatever. The first of the podcasting thing. That's right on your CD players on your phonograph. Okay. I'm talking right here. You to read books. How about. If I. Know is. So someone will hear this somewhere down the road and they'll say, yeah, and that'll encourage them to pick up stuff. Oh, yeah. I've be made fun of, And somebody's got to take you down a notch. Very. I'm not. I'm not kids, and I'm, No. And and, but but you know, I so I think that and I think the same we ought to end on that. I would ask the people who are listening and watching to look up, it's called our c o the Roman Climactic Optimum. If you look up that term in the context of the Roman Empire and what happened during and immediately after, and then shortly thereafter, it will shed significant light on what's going to potentially happen with us. The Roman climactic optimum, that occurs between about, 150 before the common era BCE to about, 250 or 300 of the Common ERA and then everything around that. Then you'll you'll be directed to look at some others. It's extremely, extremely interesting and provides much. Food for thought. Yeah, yeah. Yes. Yes, yes, yes, it leads to the crisis of the third century or whatever. And. Exactly. And it's not just they were drinking some red cups. It's not just. Did not. Enjoy the army. No, no no no no, it's not just the Vandals in the Visigoths. In the whatever. All of it tied together and the lack of resiliency. Actually, we're losing. We are losing resiliency if we haven't lost it completely, that's. And so that's worth a discussion. So absolutely. Okay. All right okay I like that. So pick up the flag. Comrades. You know carry it your, your small distance. Yeah. Because that's what we're doing. And it's a small and it's a small business. It's pathetically small. But, you know, each of us can do our piece to make our world just a touch better. We'll make mistakes, will fall down. Will. You know we can. Oh, yeah. Discussions on it. You and I are both made errors. I know you know, you get up. For what's the really falling down? Okay. So there the I love you when you. You're talking again. Sure. Okay. Sounds good. Thank.